Our heroes in Shadesmar have made it to the lighthouse, seeking a means of travel across the ocean of beads. But what will they find there? Giant toads with strangely good comedic timing? Fashionable clothing? Corrupted spren? Strange visions of the future? Or all of the above? Tune in to this week’s reread and find out!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread – if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
{In this week’s reread we also discuss some things from Elantris in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that section a pass.}
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin, Shallan
WHERE: Shadesmar, near the end of the river-ridge-thing
WHEN: 1174.2.4.1 – The same day as Navani’s meeting in Ch. 96; two days after we last saw the Shadesmar team in Ch. 95.
Kaladin and company have temporarily split up so that Kaladin can scout ahead to the lighthouse they’ve found. Inside, he finds what he thinks is a Shin man who tries to tell his fortune. Kaladin accidentally looks into the fortune-teller’s crystal and sees as a vision of Dalinar in trouble. Meanwhile, Shallan is contacted by a corrupted spren telling her that Odium is hunting for them, but in the wrong place. When they all rejoin one another in the lighthouse, they debate about which direction to go—towards the Perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks, Thaylen City, or Celebrant.
Beginnings
Title: Riino
Kaladin sat in the main room of the lighthouse, in the chair Riino—the Shin lighthouse keeper—had occupied earlier.
AA: Heh. The “Shin” lighthouse keeper… If you need a clue as to where he’s from, take a closer look at that name! Clearly from Sel, and from the nation Arelon, where they build their names based on the Aons. We’ll talk about him more in the Cosmere Connections.
Herald
Kalak, the Maker: patron of Willshapers, with the attributes Resolute and Builder
AP: I’m not sure why Kalak is here, other than that Kaladin does resolutely decide on a new goal after his vision – protect Dalinar. The Builder attribute doesn’t resonate with me, unless it’s a reference to the lighthouse – an unusual feature in Shadesmar for sure. But that’s a stretch. It could also be a reference to Riino, but we know very little about him. It may make more sense if he becomes a more prominent character. And as a worldhopper, he’s definitely a candidate for that.
Icon
The character icon is Kaladin’s Banner & Spears, though he shares the POV with Shallan.
Epigraph
Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants. They spoke extensively of her ability to corrupt spren, though only lesser spren—whatever that means.
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 89
AA: Looks like our little Unmade has gained some new powers in recent years. I wonder if Glys is the first/only of the greater spren that she has changed; that might be why she mentioned “my son” when communicating to Shallan – she only has one “son” among the sapient spren. It seems odd that her ability to corrupt spren would make her more feared than, say, Re-Shephir or Nergaoul, especially if (as far as they knew) she could only affect the lesser spren. It brings me back around to the old question: are the spren solely caused by phenomena of the physical realm, or do they also cause some things?
AP: I definitely think that Sja-anat’s powers have the potential to be much more scary than the other Unmade that we’ve seen so far. The others have temporary effects, or are geographically limited. The corruption of the spren appears to be permanent. So the more she is able to travel and be active, the more threat. I could also see the effects making an already dangerous Shadesmar completely impassable for all but the most skilled Radiants. The high spren, while they may not previously have been corruptible by Sja-anat, are already scared of what some of the “regular” spren are able to do in Shadesmar. I assume having vast amounts of corrupted spren there would be much worse. With regard to Glys, first maybe, but I don’t expect him to be the last!
Thematic Thoughts
Kaladin remembered holding a dying woman’s hand.
AA: This is the first of a few “alternate flashbacks” we get from Kaladin in this book – scenes where he is literally remembering an event from his earlier life which wasn’t included in his flashback sequence in The Way of Kings. They each have to do directly with the events of the chapter in which they appear, one way or another. In this one, he remembers one of his various attempts to escape slavery—a disastrous one in which he was leading a whole group, and every last one of them was killed… all but him.
The snapping sound of the trap closing sent a jolt through Kaladin. A year later he’d still wonder how he missed stepping in it himself. …
After killing the others, the brightlords found him still kneeling there. … Regardless of the reason, Kaladin had lived.
He always did.
AA: I have to ask: Why? Aside from narrative necessity, because the author needs his main character to have survived all this stuff, was there something “extra” going on? Was Syl affecting things? That seems unlikely, because at the time she wasn’t much more intelligent than your average flighty windspren, but at the same time it seems too much for coincidence.
L: I think his prescient bond with Syl was protecting him, at least a little. We see him using his powers well before he says the Words, after all. And it’s also possible that there are Other Supernatural Forces at play here that we can’t know about yet.
AP: Narratively it works, yes. But the “leave one person alive to ensure compliance” trope works for me. I didn’t question the reason given by the highlord, spren or no spren.
L: I think Alice is more referring to the fact that it keeps happening over and over, rather than just this one occurence.
AP: Definitely! The pattern makes it a lot more suspicious. Any one incident has a good explanation, but the whole series of events….Definitely early warning signs that Kaladin has a supernatural connection.
… neither Adolin nor Azure had experience scouting. Kaladin didn’t mention that most of his practice sneaking had come as a runaway slave.
AA: Which is how the flashback fits here, and this is something we knew about for a long time. As much as I hate the events, I have to admire Sanderson’s timing; this time in Shadesmar when Kaladin is feeling so down, feeling like he’s always failed the people who relied on him —this really is the time when Kaladin would be actively recalling all the failures, without a single thought for anyone he’s helped along the way.
Stories & Songs
L: I’m going to put discussion of Shadesmar here, for lack of a better section.
…he might have expected the heat of the enormous fire to be oppressive. Instead, he could barely feel it. Notably, the flames caused his shadow to behave normally, extending behind him instead of pointing towards the sun.
L: This is absolutely fascinating. First we have the lack of heat. So… does energy transference just not work the same way here in Shadesmar? Is the very atmosphere different? It can’t be too different or Our Heroes wouldn’t be able to breathe, right?
AP: So because stuff in Shadesmar Is Weird (™), my first assumption was that it’s not actually fire, like we would think of it in the physical realm. But it’s, like, the cognitive idea of light, which looks like what Kaladin would think or as fire, but doesn’t give off heat. Light as a Platonic ideal?
L: Then we’ve got the tidbit about the shadow going the right way. So clearly there’s something about the light of the sun that draws darkness rather than casting it.
AP: It makes his shadow behave “normally”, which the typical light sources in Shadesmar does not. Note, I have no evidence for this whatsoever, just my attempts to make sense of the cognitive realm!
“You wish me to see the unwalked paths—during the highstorm, when realms blend.”
L: The realms blend during the highstorms? Well that’s new and interesting! I wonder… just these two (physical and cognitive), or the third (spiritual) as well?
AP: We definitely have had hints before that this is the case, with the gems becoming infused with Stormlight. It’s a good confirmation to have it laid out more clearly this way. I think the three realms (physical, cognitive, spiritual) definitely have crossover, and this is a major hint to the potential for creation of a new Perpendicularity. For that to happen, the realms have to crossover or blend.
Outside, the sky rippled with light. The clouds shimmered, gaining a strange, ethereal luminescence.
“That…” Kaladin said. “Is that what a highstorm looks like on this side?”
L: I don’t really have much to say about this aside that it’s interesting to see.
“Did you come directly from the perpendicularity?” The old man frowned. “Not a lot of people coming through there anymore.”
L: There are hints in this chapter that there’s something really Not Good happening near the Perpendicularity (the one they’re probably talking about is in the Horneater peaks), but we don’t know yet exactly what it is.
AP: I don’t think we know why yet. I expect it’s a Red Flag that will come up in later books.
He thinks something strange happened to the Oathgate because of our influence—we’ve never managed to Enlighten such powerful spren before.
L: So the spren tied to the Oathgate are more powerful than the sapient spren (such as Glys) that can bond to Knights Radiant. This is good information to know. Also, now we know that the word Odium’s forces use for this corruption is “Enlighten”ing.
AP: This is another big clue toward who/what Glys is before that big reveal, when combined with the epigraph. Sja-anat’s powers/influence are growing, whether she wants them to or not. I also still don’t trust her. I don’t know how she found Shallan, and/or how she is able to keep that information secret from Odium. Or if it is. Or if she is just super tricky. I flip flop on this one a lot. Narratively, I want to trust her and have her be a double agent. But I talk myself in & out of it constantly.
Then a figure. Dalinar Kholin, kneeling someplace dark, surrounded by nine shadows. A flash of glowing eyes.
The enemy’s champion was coming.
L: Dun dun duuuuun!
AP: I’m really interested in how/why Kaladin is able to use the crystal ball thing. Can anyone who is invested use it? Or only certain types of investiture? And how does Riino do it? Is the mechanism the same?
L: I’d assume that he’s Invested somehow, as that’s what he initially assumes Kaladin is.
AP: Apart from that, this vision is disturbing. I do like how it ties together the various character plotlines that are happening in disparate areas of the world. And, of course, it gives Kaladin a thread to focus on and pull him out of his current spiral.
Relationships & Romances
“You all right?” Adolin asked, kneeling beside her, putting his hand on her back, then rubbing her shoulders. Storms, that felt good.
L: Adolin has come a long way since his playboy days in The Way of Kings. He obviously genuinely cares for Shallan, but he still has a ways to go. He knows something is wrong, but he can’t determine what it is—and who can blame him? Who would come to the conclusion that their significant other has multiple distinct personalities without said SO actually opening up about this?
AP: I love these little moments between them, when they are forging a genuine connection. In a stressful situation he is taking a time out to emotionally support his partner. Soldier Playboy Adolin would not have done this.
Bruised & Broken
Find freedom. Find honor again.
L: I’m only quoting this one part, but there are so many heartbreaking moments in this flashback that starts off the chapter. Poor, poor Kaladin. Every time we think we’ve seen the extent of his past trauma, another memory of losing people rears its ugly head. The thing I love about Kal is that while he’s often engaging in self-pity, it’s often because of how he’s failed others rather than because of things that have happened to him, if that makes sense. Yes, he does have the occasional “woe is me for Amaram f*ed up my whole life” but this isn’t the sum of his experience. He truly cares about the people around him, and wants so desperately to save them. But…
Regardless of the reason, Kaladin had lived.
He always did.
L: It must be so difficult to continue to lose the people you care about while you seem somehow shielded by fate.
What other simple, stable parts of his life were complete lies?
L: Oh, Kaladin.
She hated sending [Kaladin] alone, but Shallan knew nothing about that sort of work. Veil did. But Veil … still felt broken, from what had happened in Kholinar. That was dangerous. Where would Shallan hide now? As Radiant?
L: Maybe it’s for the best that Veil is “broken,” Shallan.
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
AP: This inner monologue is really interesting. She recognizes that she is Veil, and needs to accept that, but she’s not there yet. The admission to herself that she is using her personas to hide is a big step. It’s also really interesting to me that Veil’s reaction to what happened in Kholinar is similar to Kaladin’s reaction to what happened in Kholinar. Kaladin being one of the people that Shallan studied as she continued to develop the Veil persona.
Shallan lowered her pencil, looking with dissatisfaction at the attempt she’d made at drawing a fearspren. It looked like a child’s scribble.
Veil was seeping out.
AP: And then we have this. Even as she begins to accept her personas as constructs they are becoming more & more distinct with different abilities, or rather, “Shallan” has decided that they are. Is there an issue in Shadesmar that is interfering with her Lightweaver-enhanced drawing ability that she is blaming on Veil? Or is this actually a progression? Was the trip to Shadesmar a necessary step in her being able to take control of the personas that she created & solidified with her untrained Lightweaver abilities? I refer to Shallan’s mental illness as Dissociative Identity Disorder, which is what it most closely resembles as a real life counterpart, but this is a good time for a reminder that it isn’t, really. It’s a fictional version bolstered by magical interference. Which I suspect is affected by her physical presence in the cognitive realm.
“He’s got battle fatigue, but an objective will help with that. We have to watch him when he’s sitting around doing nothing, not when he’s got a specific mission.”
AA: Whether this is his training or his personal observation, he’s at least mostly correct. Kaladin can brood even when on a mission, but at least most of his attention will be on the mission, and at least for that time he’s not likely to forget what he’s doing.
L: Yup. It’s when you don’t have anything to do to distract you from the depression and the spiraling thoughts that you really have to watch out.
AP: Yeeesss….but it also makes me really really nervous for him. Focusing on a goal helps with symptom avoidance, but it’s not a long term solution. I still need a Rosharan mental health system, like stat. This series is excellent for focus on what are often serious effects of hidden/misunderstood mental illnesses in society, but it really makes me feel for the characters who have to go through life untreated.
He had a purpose. A goal. Something to focus on other than the people he’d lost in Kholinar.
Protect Dalinar.
L: I’m glad he’s got something specific to drive him. But I fear the day when he doesn’t have something like that to fall back on.
“It’s a lake on our side,” Adolin said. “Called the Sea of Spears, in the southeast of Alethkar. By the ruins… of Rathalas.” He drew his lips to a line and glanced away.
“What?” Kaladin asked.
“Rathalas was where my mother was killed,” Adolin said. “Assassinated by rebels.”
L: Oof. I really do fear the day when he inevitably finds out the truth. It could go one of two ways, I think… either Adolin will forgive his father, or… he won’t, and we’re going to see one of the biggest heel-turns in fantasy fiction.
AP: It’s a concern for sure. I do like that we get his perspective on Dalinar’s behavior when the Rift is mentioned. From Dalinar’s POVs we know that he just didn’t remember what happened, so the “strange distant expression” is literally him trying to put the pieces together. But it comes off as grief to everyone else, especially his son who thinks his father and mother had a much stronger relationship than they actually did, thanks to Evi building up an idea of Dalinar for his sons.
Places & Peoples
He’d promised to help the older woman find her husband, who had been sold to another household. That wasn’t supposed to be legal, but you could get away with doing all kinds of things to slaves with the right brands, especially if they were foreign.
AA: And… once again we see the dark underside of Alethi culture. Or at least one aspect of it. Sometimes I think the parsh slaves may have been … if not “better off,” at least better cared for than the human ones. With their lack of self-motivation, they were treated like animals, but they were prized and generally well-kept animals. (Yes, infuriating, and there were HUGE problems, since they weren’t as oblivious as the humans assumed. But we’re not really dealing with the parsh here.) What always astonishes me is how horrible people can be to other people, as long as they can put them in some sort of classification that “justifies” the treatment. “Oh, he has a ___ brand. Oh, he’s just a Riran. Oh, no one wants this one. Oh, this one is dangerous.” Then they can tell themselves it’s okay to treat them worse than they’d ever treat a useful animal.
AP: Yeah, so, I don’t see this as a “dark underside.” This is what their culture is. Full stop. The only ones who don’t see this side of the culture are the brightlords who are able to ignore what is happening by virtue of their privileged spot in the hierarchy. They don’t have to bother with the details of how the lighteyes below them are enforcing said hierarchy. Othering of people who don’t belong to your specific cultural and social class is a major issue.
Next to Kaladin, Nalma’s leg was caught in a fierce steel trap—a thing of springs and jaws that they wouldn’t even use on a beast, for fear of ruining the sport.
AA: I… I can’t even say anything. This kind of brutality beggars my vocabulary. I’ll leave this one to Lyndsey, to say all the things I can’t.
L: This is absolutely atrocious and the slave-owners/hunters are f*ing monsters.
AP: This is also absolutely reflective of actual incidents of slave owning culture in the history of the U.S. (and other places). Higher value was placed on the entertainment value to the slave owner of having a “good” hunt than the value of an actual human life. Which was viewed as property damage. Absolutely disgusting, but an excellent example and I’m glad the attitude was included because it is such a clear illustration of how the lighteyes view the darkeyes and their respective places in the society. Brutal and effective passage.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
She nodded towards Azure… . “What do you make of her?”
“That uniform is well tailored,” Adolin said…,
L: At this point he could still be about to make some sort of conclusion about where she comes from, or her personality, but in true Adolin fashion:
“But the blue doesn’t work with her skin. She needs a lighter shade. The breastplate is overly much, like she’s trying to prove something. I do like the cape though. I’ve always wanted to justify wearing one. Father gets away with it, but I never could.”
“I wasn’t asking for a wardrobe assessment, Adolin.”
“What happened to the fancy suit you got in Kholinar?”
“It didn’t fit me anymore,” he said, resuming the massage. “But you do raise an important problem. Yes, we need to find food and drink. But if I have to wear the same uniformthis entire trip, you won’t have to murder me. I’ll commit suicide.”
L: Reason #567 I love Adolin: that sense of humor.
Cosmere Connections
“How? Impossible. Unless… you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi… A Surgebinder? It has begun again?”
L: Oh hey there, Elantrian! Fancy seeing you here! (And how long have you been here, to say “it has begun again”? Have you just heard stories, or were you here for the last Desolation? Can normal people age in the cognitive realm? SO MANY QUESTIONS!)
Also, just as a tiny note, it’s interesting to note that since Kaladin mistakes this Elantrian for a Shin, we can assume that the Elantrians look more western in appearance. Bigger eyes, probably fair skinned.
AP: Giveaways that he is from Sel include the “merciful Domi” exclamation, since Dominion was one of the shards of Adolnasium that settled there. HOWEVER, this is also a big clue that Riino is either very old, or very well experienced in world hopping, since Dominion was killed and shattered by Odium before the formation of the skaze, which are a result of the splintering. (The seons being splinters of the other shard that settled there, Devotion.)
L: Granted it’s been a long time since I read Elantris, but didn’t they use “Merciful Domi” often in that? It’s possible that he’s not that old if that’s the case… Could just be one of those turns of phrase that lingered well after the reason for their inception is long gone.
AP: I grant that this is also a possibility, but the paintings on the walls make me suspicious.
L: Another interesting tidbit is that he mentions Heightening, which is a solely Nalthis (Warbreaker) thing. So not only has this world-hopper jumped here to Roshar, he’s either visited Nalthis or has spoken to people from there.
“In all my life, I’ve only met one human I believe truly understood it. And he might actually be a god. I’m not sure.”
“Wit,” Kaladin said. “The man that brought you the metal that protected your Soulcaster.”
L: I’m relatively certain that Hoid would be annoyed at being thought a god.
AP: Depends on the day, I think.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
… a round, lurg-like creature with a fat, bulbous body and squat legs. About the size of a toddler, it hopped close to him, then tipped the entire top half of its head backward. A long tongue shot up in the air from the gaping mouth; it began to flap and wave.
Storms. An anticipationspren? … [He tries to shoo three of them away, but no dice.]
Finally, he just continued forward, his three bothersome attendants hopping behind. That sorely undermined the stealth of his approach, making him more nervous—which in turn made the anticipationspren even more eager to stick with him.
AA: Oh, help! The mental image of Kaladin, deeply depressed but intent on a mission, being followed around by a trio of footstool-sized toad waving their tongues in the air… I’m dying here! I guess we needed the comedy break, eh?
L: This really tickles my funny bone, too. I also love that when he’s spotted because of them, our poor long-suffering Windrunner just sighs.
AP: I absolutely love the juxtapositions in the descriptions of the spren in the physical realm and their cognitive realm counterparts. I find myself trying to guess what each will look like now.
“So,” Syl said, sitting on a rock nearby and swinging her legs. “I’ve always wondered. Does the world look weird to you, or normal?”
“Weird,” Pattern said. “Mmm. Same as for everyone.”
“I guess neither of us technically have eyes,” Syl said, leaning back and looking up at the glassy canopy of their tree-mushroom shelter. “We’re each a bit of power made manifest. We honorspren mimic Honor himself. You Cryptics mimic… weird stuff?”
“The fundamental underlying mathematics by which natural phenomena occur. Mmm. Truths that explain the fabric of existence.”
“Yeah. Weird stuff.”
L: As an English major and theater kid, gotta say I’m with Syl on this one. Math and science were never my forte, but I love that Pattern is a physical representation of the very laws of nature.
AP: And as a total data nerd, I’m definitely into Pattern’s reading of the universe!
She followed his nod and spotted and odd little spren floating through the air. Bone-white and brown, it had wings extending to the sides and long tresses for a tail. In front of its body hovered a cube.
“Looks like those gloryspren we saw earlier,” she noted. “Only the wrong color. And the shape of the head is…”
“Corrupted!” Syl said. “That’s one of Odium’s!”
L: I always find it really interesting to see the ways the physical appearance of the spren are corrupted by Odium.
AP: Saaammmeee…and I’m also super interested in how Sja-anat is able to use this one to send a message! Is that a feature of all corrupted spren? Glory spren being used because they likely showed up in the Voidbringer takeover of the city? Or only particular types of spren, and she had to track down a good one that could send a message (wings and can follow directions to find Shallan)?
Sheer Speculation
One wall contained a picture of people kneeling before a bright white mirror. Another was a cityscape at dusk, with a group of low houses clustered before an enormous wall that had light glowing beyond it.
L: Hmmm, interesting. These could be Cosmere connections, or just random paintings. But I’m going to throw out some wild speculations here. I think the picture of the mirror might be a representation of Adonalsium, before being shattered. The second one could be a depiction of the city in the “Girl who stood up” story.
AP: Definitely a Cosmere connection, to my mind. I don’t know what it refers to specifically, but Riino being a worldhopper, I expect that the reference is meaningful, even if I don’t know to what.
Next week will see us back to Skybreaker training in chapter 98! Get your Lashings ready, squires!
Alice is celebrating her birthday this week!
Lyndsey will play the wild rover no more… no, nay never, no nay never no more. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
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WoB is that Riino is the hoed guy from Elantris who keeps saying “so beautiful”. That one that, as far as we see, gets dissolved in the blue pool. Which raises so many new questions…
(Also the picture of the header says “Panrii” instead of “Riino”. Was that his name in an earlier draft?)
Adolin is just… the best. I feel like he is just plain comedy, but he doesn’t try. He doesn’t try, It’s just the way he is, his intended jokes aren’t funny but he genuinely is to readers.
Isn’t that bright wall powered Elantris? Also nice observation about that mirror I missed it on my read. Could it be mirror from Thenody? It’s description reminds me of silver.
Is the fire similar to what Kelsier uses in Secret History? Maybe that’s why is makes normal shadows?
ah the lighthouse of easter eggs, always a favorite
I’ll second @@.-@ by saying I think the glowing wall is the city Elantris.
The spren giving away Kaladin is particularly obvious here in the cognitive, but I have to imagine it gets in the way back in physical sometimes too.
The title doesn’t match the picture.
I assume that this will be what ‘breaks’ Adolin and then allows him to form a Nahel bond and resurrect Maya.
@@@@@ 2, necessary_eagle
If he was a Hoed, then he’s hundreds of years old. Elantris is the earliest chronologically and the blue pool was Devotion’s Shardpool, so presumably he got transported into Shadesmar then.
I can’t help but wonder why somebody like Riino would chose to live like this? And how often must must people come to visit him and ask for the glimpses of the future to keep him in food and drink? It is also rather sad that the Diagramm apparently doesn’t know about his existence, as they could have used him instead of death rattles! And something tells me that the Ghostbloods are regular customers. I also imagine that a lot of worldhoppers acquire some Breaths and learn a little Awakening if they can, because of the obvious benefits.
It is also fairly likely that the Nalthians are disproportionally numerous among the worldhoppers, because access to Sel is so dangerous in the Cognitive and the population of Scadrial was drastically reduced just 3 or centuries previously and is still relatively small. Taldain is “closed”, while the access to the Perpendicularity on the First of the Sun is incredibly dangerous on the physical side.
BTW, since people need to ingest nourishment while in Shadesmar, what happens with human waste while there? I mean Our Heroes didn’t notice any particular stink around the lighthouse but it would be kinda depressing if the most travelled routes through the Cognitive were signposted by… it. Or even the bodies of people and occasional physical world animals who had the misfortune to die there.
Anyway, is it possible to infuse gems while in Shadesmar? It kinda should be, as Honor’s Perpendicularity pierces all 3 realms, and apparently powers Riino’s contraption, but at the same time Our Heroes gems were not recharged. Yes, the fire in the lighthouse must be a manifested thing, like the one Kelsier used in the Secret History and like the items that Shallan will learn to manifest from beads later on in their journey. It also seems that Riino has means to preserve stormlight without any loss. Too bad that nobody questions him about it.
I love Adolin, but I really don’t understand why he questioned Azure’s fashion sense, when she had to wear the Wall Guard uniform for obviousl reasons. Also, wearing a breastplate is “trying too hard”?! Isn’t it normal equipment for Rosharan soldiers and quite helpful against conventional weapons? It made zero sense that Adolin and Ehlokar didn’t wear some themselves during their attack on the palace.
Why are some spren corrupted by Sja-Anat not red? Isn’t red the color of corrupted investiture? And the sooner Shallan aknowledges that Veil doesn’t have any experience or skills that she herself doesn’t, the better. It is ascribing to Veil these imaginary traits that led to the debacle with her attempted charity in Kholinar in the first place.
Finally – slavery. Yea, it is awful, even though the atrocities that Kaladin experienced were clearly “against the rules”. But then, it seems that these laws weren’t really enforced. I feel that this is one of the biggest issues facing Jasnah as the new queen – the destitute refugees, particularly women with children, are going to be very vulnerable to enslavement for debt and there is demand for slaves because of the defection of the parshmen. But a nation-in-exile can’t afford to be divided in such a way and these children are it’s future. I can’t see the new Windrunners standing for perpetuation of slavery either. So, in addition to being a heretical queen ruling a broken nation during the end of the world, Jasnah will have to move against entrenched interests and traditions where slavery is involved.
This also begs the question of whether Renarin bonded with Glys before or after it was corrupted. Having the potential to corrupt bonded spren would have HUGE implications for Radiants.
I’d guess this is related to Resonance. Kaladin’s relationship to Dalinar might be considered similar to an apprentice relationship.
Shallan is LEGION :)
Adolin fashion – I see what you did there!
Something Aubree wrote made me think: consider Veil and Radiant as cognitive constructs … that would make them spren-like. Could Sja-Anat corrupt them?
Not a normal person. He’s an Elantrian. They aren’t “normal” even in the Physical Realm, let alone in Shadesmar.
WoB says Nalthis has a literal customs office in the Cognitive Realm. Lots of Worldhoppers go there. Also, the paintings are almost certainly related to the Returned and their prophecies, if you think about it.
I’m kind of hoping the mirror painting is actually a prophecy, in that it relates to a future story. Maybe it’s a key scene in Mistborn Era Four or something?
I believe what’s going on at Perpendicularity is that Odium sent a bunch of forces there to hold it, since it’s a pretty tactically important locale from his perspective. At the very least, he sent Moelach there, who I guess must be more dangerous in Shadesmar because I don’t know what ‘more Death Rattles among the Horneaters!’ would accomplish.
When I read Chapter 97 for the first time, I realized that Jasnah must have got the bandolier she had when she Elsecalled at the end of WoR in Shadesemar. (I am still not sure whether Jasnah acquired it at some lighthouse or a town in Shadesmar. Who would have thought that some humans would live permanently in Shadesmar?
Where do non-Rosharians enter Shadesmar? It cannot be from Cultivation’s Perpendicularity. For example, how did Riino, Vasher and Vivenna get into Shadesmar?
Lynsdey. I do not think Adolin will turn full-on-heel (a la Moash) when Adolin learns the truth of how he dies. Maybe Playboy Adolin/pre-Shallan Adolin would have. I think Shallan’s love and support will help him through. I also think that Renarin will be forgive Dalinar almost immediately. He and Shallan (both of whom will not abandon Team Dalinar in the fight against Odium) will help Adolin come to forgive Dalinar. It may take most of the 4th book; but I am confident Adolin will not abandon Dalinar in the end.
Alice, Lynsdey and Aubree. I am confused by something Lydsey said. She said “So not only has this world-hopper jumped here to Roshar, he’s either visited Nalthis or has spoken to people from there.” (emphasis added by me) Why did you use the word “here” when referring to Roshar? Rhiino is in Shadesmar when we meet him. I thought there was just one Shadesmar throughout the Cosmere. If one went far enough through the portion that was the inverse reflection of Roshar, one would come to the sections of Shadesmar that are the inverse reflection of the other planets. I could have sworn there was a WoB to this affect. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@9
This makes a kind of sense since what broke Maya was a betrayal by her night and what broke Adolin (hypothetically) is a betrayal by his father.
@15
My assumption is that it refers to the part of Shadesmar that reflects Roshar, rather than one that reflected Sel or Nalthis.
Is this the chapter where they see a picture that’s basically all different shades of one color? Because I remember being kind of excited that a picture from Nalthis was on sale, ha.
I am pretty sure the Rathalas mention here is meant to be a big authorial reminder that Adolin is going to have something to deal with in the upcoming books.
Who is human is an interesting question.
I was lumping all the people who looked human as humans. But one of you said Riin isn’t human since he is from Sel. Are the people from the different planets even able to cross-breed? Humans did that with the Parsh and they are even less human seeming than someone from Sel and the off-spring were obviously not sterile.
I suppose I was even thinking of the original “people” who took the shards as being human.
My human centric bias is showing.
If we think of the 3 Realms (Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual) as being parallel to each other, then a perpendicular line would be one that intersects all three. Hence Perpendicularity.
But I’m sure you already knew that.
@19: Riin isn’t human, not because he’s from Sel, but because he’s an Elantrian. He’s so Invested, that he’s practically a different species. We know that the Returned from Nalthis (invested with a Divine Breath from Endowment), cannot reproduce. I imagine that Elantrians are in a similar position.
@19 goddessimho
Possible Elantris Spoiler
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Residents of Elantris have died and come back, gaining investiture. So, they are not strictly human because of that. I also don’t think it was clear at the end of that book whether they could still breed with normal humans, but other forms of investiture (both Scadrial and Nalthis show invested people having children).
@21, @22; In the Elantrian short story, the spirit of Elantris, Sarene is pregnanat with Raoden’s child. So Elantrians can reproduce after the Sheod.
@22 Actually, Elantrians did not die and come back, they are not Returned. I don’t think the book really explained why Elantrians really changed into Elantrians. and like @23 said, there is proof that Elantrians can reproduce with non Elantrians. Also, I think Elantrians can still be considered humans, as much as Returned or Surge binders, or mistborn can be, They just gain their investiture all at once. Now with this guy, he may or may not be a elantrian. If they are away from the city, they get splotches over their body and become weaker, like the ones from Secret History and they need a device to help them out. This guy doesn’t seem get a description of a strange rash over his skin, and I don’t see why he would use a illusion to hide it, since he wasn’t expecting company here.
@@@@@ 24
The reason Riino does not seem to have any maladies we would expect of an Elantrian off-Sel, yet doesn’t have the Dor pipeline from SH, could be due to the fashion in which he was transferred to the Cognitive – that is, being dissolved into a pool of pure Devotion Investiture. It’s possible he was “reborn” in some fashion, or “remade” a la Kelsier at the Well of Ascension.
@18: I think that’s a later chapter, the one where they go shopping in the Celebrant market.
So I have a theory that is predicated on information that is not confirmed, so it is very loose. Basically going on the assumption that shardplate is the product of lesser spren (this has not been confirmed yet, and there are plenty of theories that say otherwise), then I think I have an idea as to why Sja-anat is so feared. What if all the lesser spren in the area were corrupted, so when the radiant tries to summon his or her armor, the lesser spren don’t obey and form into armor? Suddenly the radiant is very vulnerable. Or even worse, what if among the spren forming the armor, some are corrupted, and cause problems with the armor? Take control? Drain the radiant’s stormlight? Or any other possibility. If I was a radiant, that possibility would make me fear her influence greatly. At least that is the theory.
@AndrewHB:
All of them entered on other planets, and walked (or otherwise traveled) through the Cognitive Realm to reach Shadesmar (the Cognitive near Roshar). Presumably Vasher and Vivenna used Endowment’s Perpendicularity. We actually saw Riino get thrown into Devotion’s Perpendicularity in Elantris.
There is only one spacetime in the Cosmere, but you can still be “on” Roshar in space, or travel from space near Sel to space near Roshar. That’s all it means.
@LazerWulf:
In fact, Galladon (who appears in the Stormlight Archive) is the son of an Elantrian as well as an Elantrian himself.
The Elantrians are in fact dead/returned, even if they don’t know it. Brandon has said he meant the post-Reod Elantrians to be zombies, halfway between life and death, a theme he revisited in Warbreaker very extensively. Hmm … and kind of in “Shadows for Silence.”
Brandon Sanderson
Chapter Ten
Are the Elantrians zombies? I’ve been asked this question before. The answer is a little bit yes, a little bit no. I very intentionally don’t make any references in the story to them being zombie-like, and I certainly don’t call them “undead.” Both words bring a lot of baggage with them.
No, the Elantrians aren’t “zombies.” However, they certainly would fit the standard fantasy definition of being “undead.” After all, their bodies aren’t really alive, but they can think. Still, I resist comparisons to established fantasy traditions. I wanted the Elantrians to be their own genre of creatures. In the world I have created, they are simply “Elantrians.” They are people who don’t need to eat, whose bodies only function on a marginal level, and whose pains never go away. For the function they fill in the world and the story, I’d rather that they be compared to lepers.
That said, I always have wanted to do a story with a zombie as a main character.
Elantris Annotations (July 8, 2005)
Concerning Shallan’s multiple personalities, maybe you’re interested in a bit of insight from me, as I’m experiencing a similar sort of condition (although it’s a lot less psychologically concerning).
Disclaimer: I’m on the autism spectrum and it only works over chat, so I’m fine, even if a hostile takeover took place.
I’m occasionally experiencing this during (online chat one-on-one) roleplaying sessions with my best friend. We like to drop characters into conflictsome situations and watch them strugle to cope. We have enough of them who clash by default, but occasionally someone comes up with a new antagonist for a scene, and sometimes these stick around.
Anyhow, some of these characters are, somehow, staying with me, like a presence somewhere in the back of my head. One of them feels particularily “real” to me. (Fortunately, he’s a Good Guy and often acts as my conscience. Funny enough, I’m actually female and identifying as such. This never caused any issues for either of us though.)
Example:
I often have difficulties with morally ambiguous situations because of autism I tend to reason such things through and occasionally arrive at conclusions that aren’t quite compatible with society’s standards. My imaginary friend has a firm sense of right and wrong though, so I can double-check with him to be on the safe side.
The way Shallan thinks about Veil is exactly the way I think about any of “my” personas. I know that I’m real and the one owning the body, and I can’t put them in the driver’s seat due to the fact that it doesn’t work as soon as the medium of expression is anything but text, but I think I understand her better than most. If I am unable to cope I have sometimes leaned heavily on someone who could, to the degree where it felt as if they were leading me through the entire process, but I’m still the one who has to act. (I also can’t let them take the driver’s seat, which I occasionally regret. One of them would take this body and whip it into shape.)
The worst kind of “bleedover” I ever experienced was when I found that I could write a thought that felt as if it hadn’t originated in my brain but came from one of them instead, and even then I’m still the one who has to press the keys. If I was mentally instable enough to hide behind them, or even try to _become_ them so it’s not hurting so much, the way Shallan is, I suppose I may be in trouble, but fortunately I’m a little older than she is and have worked through that time of my life without that crutch.
@13, Carl:
<gulps nervously>
L: I’m glad he’s got something specific to drive him. But I fear the day when he doesn’t have something like that to fall back on.”
I strongly suspect that this whole deal is the key to the next Ideal. He needs to prioritize who he protects, yes? I think that it will go something like this: “I will protect X above all others.”
To those worried about Sja-anat corrupting Shallan’s personae: WoB is that Physical Realm Shallan looks the same in the Cognitive Realm as Physical Realm Veil does, so there’s no external Cognitive entity for Sja-anat to get her claws into. Meaning that Shallan’s problems won’t get worse from that direction.
@31
This seems too close to the oath that Skybreakers take and, in Szeth’s case, almost identical. I think Windrunners, and Kaladin in particular, need a fourth oath that will let them function when they can’t protect everyone. Or, in other words, something that would prevent Kaladin from freezing like he did in Kholinar.
Actually, Domi is the God of the Shu-Korath, the religion in Teod and Arelon, based on uniting the world through love. The Name Domi is built around the Aon Omi (love). Dominion would be the role model for Jaddeth, the god of Shu-Dereth, who wants to… well dominate the whole world. And we also know, that splinters of Dominion have their hands in this religion.
I never knew the name’s etymology because Aons were never my interest. Brandon with the cheeky misdirect, how typical haha.
In AonDor the Aon Omi has an interesting effect actually
perfect weapon against Odium :P
@31
Interesting. I’ve been on the side of Kaladin’s next oath needing to be about letting people go, but what if the X in your suggestion is himself? “I will protect myself above all else.”
It squares with his survivors guilt over all his failed rescues, growing callouses advice from his father, the historic Windrunner questioning “aren’t I supposed to help people?” You can’t help anyone if you haven’t helped yourself first sometimes.
Since it is better now than never, I would say I like this chapter for various reasons.
I like how Brandon chose to incorporate additional mini flashbacks. While there are some chapters and narrative elements I do believe took away from, IMHO, more interesting/important plot points, I never felt this way with the flashbacks. Those were relatively short, but I felt they helped fill-in the holes within Kaladin’s backstory. Also, the fact Brandon has opened the door for these imply we might get additional flashbacks for missing scenes such as how Shallan bounded Pattern as a child or how Dalinar/Adolin bounded their Rhysadium. As a reader, the one I *really* want to read is how Adolin won Maya, but since he isn’t a main protagonist, that’s unlikely to happen, but one can still hope.
On the side note, I am excited over what is happening at the Horneaters Peaks. I do wonder if they will be one of the three locations for RoW’s narrative and, if so, which characters are going there.
Adolin never was a playboy. He bounced off from one date to the next out of an inability to commit to anyone he’d be fake and uncomfortable with. He naturally is a caring person, but his Riran heritage clashed with the expectations out of an Alethi male. It isn’t surprising he would fall in love with a foreigner… and it isn’t surprising he’d be emotionally attentive to her needs.
On Shallan thinking her horrible alter-ego dream-girl named Veil being broken, then I thought the whole ordeal taught her a valuable lesson: you can’t be someone you aren’t. You can play pretend, but you cannot re-invent your life to have a different experience nor emotional response to it. You can only be you. I hope Shallan’s narrative will broach this, in RoW, just as I yearn for the day where she will agree Veil is just a disguise and, as a result, is not important.
Kaladin focusing on protecting Dalinar annoys me. I *get* why he does it, I *get* having a goal helps him focus and move out of his depressive mood, I am however annoy this one task is “protect Dalinar”. Dalinar currently stands as one of the most powerful Radiants: of all people, he doesn’t need protection and Kaladin focusing on protecting the one person who doesn’t need it will truly irk me, later, when Adolin gets wounded. Hence, it isn’t Kaladin himself I am annoyed at, more his choice of a mission and the fact this mission goes against the rules of friendship.
About Rathalas… I was surprised no one commented on how Adolin, for once, had a visible negative reaction which was obvious enough an unobservant man such as Kaladin noticed it. As a rule of thumbs, Adolin never shows whenever he is emotionally struggling. He shows anger, pride, arrogance, happiness, but vulnerability, sadness? Never. In this scene however, the mere mention of Rathalas is enough for him to react sufficiently for others to catch on it. This fact alone makes the scene considerably more relevant than initially thought of.
Also, I was surprised no one commented on what Adolin’s little tale meant… We know, from Dalinar’s flashbacks, the official truth was Evi had been abducted and murdered by rebels. In revenge, they attacked Rathalas. Sadeas put on the fire, but it was an accident. Adolin’s words differ from this official version: in his internalized version of the event, Sadeas, the miscreant, burned Rathalas, Tanalan killed his mother, and his father, overcome with grief and injuries was unable to stop the carnage. This last bout seems important: Adolin readily believes the fact his father did not stop the fires meant he was unable to do so out of grief and wounds. He readily believes Dalinar would NEVER be responsible for such destruction. I doubt this was part of the official version of the event. I am willing to bet this is 100% Adolin having, once again, turned his father into a tragic hero, overcome by sorrow after the wife he loved was brutally murdered. A tragic tale, far from the truth, but obviously the one little Adolin chose to hang up to.
How can the truth not hurt given what Adolin believes? I know a lot of readers have argued Adolin wouldn’t care for it, would agree it was in the past, would agree his father is so amazing he is beyond reproach, would reason out now is not the time to dwell on the past, but how can it *not* hurt? How can a lie of this magnitude not emotionally impact those concerned by it?
How can the truth not trigger the biggest heal-turn in fantasy? How can Adolin *still* believe in Dalinar, *still* want to follow him after finding out the lies his father has hidden in his drunkeness? How can a son not lose respect for a father after having been deceived in such manner?
This being said, I disagree with the comments on Adolin’s thoughts about fashion. I disagree it was meant to be humoristic. Adolin was making no puns nor jokes. When Shallan asks him what he did with the fancy suit he wore in Kholinar, Adolin responds it no longer suited him. That was not a joke. Adolin just told us what a given individual chooses to wear is important and tells us something about this person. In the next sentence, he admits the fancy suit was no longer his to wear, it didn’t fit. Hence, what does this tells us about Adolin? Why does he think this suit no longer fits him?
And, of course, Adolin disamorced all further questioning by making an idiotic comment about needing to wash… but the crux of the scene remains this unanswered question, what did the suit mean to Adolin, what did it represent and why does he think it no longer applies? That Adolin no longer views himself as the superficial fop he once was? That he has grown out of this phase? That going back to it told him he no longer wanted it? That he doesn’t believe he is a lord now Radiants exist? It could be many things, but I disagree the exchange was insert purely for comical relief purposes.
Still, I love this chapter.
Gepeto @38:
Couldn’t agree more about the mini-flashbacks! I would like to see a couple of those from the more minor characters PoVs as well. Also, rather than Adolin’s duel for Maya, I’d like to see the Ryshadium bonding flashback from his PoV. I am not sure that it would fit his character to get himself another one so soon, but IMHO he is going to help Shallan and Jasnah try to bond some and could reminisce about winning over Sureblood in the process.
I too used to think that an expedition to the Horneater Peaks going to constitute one of the major plot points in RoW, but after Sanderson mentioned the planned Rock novella and hinted that it would be one of those novellas which are needed for the overall plot, rather than something that would be nice to have, I kinda expect that this stuff is going to be dealt with there rather than in the volume 4 directly.
I disagree that Dalinar didn’t need to be protected, because, manifestly, he did. I was initially frustrated by the fact that Dalinar didn’t keep and use Jezrien’s honorblade, because he is an important target as the fulcrum and leader of the anti-Odium coalition, Honor’s heir, etc. and it was clear that he would became the most prioritized target of the opposition. It was also very clear to me in advance that the honotblade would be stolen if one of the PoV characters didn’t bond it. However, towards the end of the book, it was clearly shown why Dalinar couldn’t afford to take up a weapon, to fight even in his own defense. Because old bad habits die hard and if he tried to fight, Odium would have gotten him. It was a very close thing as it was. What is more, it is possible that fighting and killing is fundemantally against the “I will unite instead of divide” oath.
Concerning Adolin’s story about Rathalas, I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t a story that all Kholin family was told by Gavilar. I am coming back to Jasnah’s prologue where she thought about what a good man Dalinar was. And yes, she is a product of Alethi culture, but Rathalas was an atrocity even by Alethi norms and Jasnah isn’t devoid of conscience and morality. I mean, it may be that you are right, but I’d have thought that Jasnah’s and Navani’s view of Dalinar would have been a little bit different, had they known.
I too would prefer to reading flashbacks from the Rhysadium bounding ceremony from Adolin’s perspective as opposed to Dalinar’s. My reasons are I have always felt Adolin’s relationship with Sureblood was narratively more significant/important than Dalinar’s relationship with Gallant, especially given Adolin now takes care of Gallant, not Dalinar. I’d be great to read another character bound a Rhsysadium though I would probably find the scene sad as it would remind me how Adolin lost his and is unlikely to attract a new one. In a world where Radiants walk again, what chances does he have? So yes, I agree Adolin is unlikely to bond another Rhysadium.
I am open towards other characters besides the main five to get mini-flashbacks. In fact, I would love if other characters were allowed to have those!
I don’t think the Rock novella bars part of the RoW narrative to happen at the Horneater Peaks. It is obvious Rock has to travel back home and to accomplisn “something”, but I don’t see how this would exclude part of our crew to travel there, at a later time. After all, the Horneater Peaks are one of the most important defensive position and they host Cultivation’s perspenticularity. Hence, I don’t think it is too far-fetched to think Adolin and Shallan may travel there and end up using the perpenticularity. Adolin, at the very least, should travel back to Shadesmar. That would be his way.
Still, this is just speculation, so little is known about RoW!
Unless my memory is mistaken, the dangers Dalinar faced weren’t ones Kaladin could protect him from. Dalinar had to face Odium, it was dangerous, but only he could do this. Also, had he receive a blow, he would have merely healed himself… this is why I never felt Dalinar really ever was in a danger anyone could protect him from. His demons were his to face, alone.
On the reverse, Adolin was dying and all Kaladin could think of was this mission he made for himself to protect Dalinar. How about focusing on the one who’s hurt right in front of you instead? So yeah, I was annoyed at Kaladin’s tunnel-vision and inability to focus on what’s right in front of his eyes.
About Rathalas, it is unclear who knows what. While it is reasonable to assume Navani, at the very least, would know the truth, if Gavilar knew, it is still not a given. Ditto for Jasnah. I am, however, convinced the part where Adolin believes Dalinar *would* have stopped Rathalas from happening had he not been grieving comes from him. No one would have told him such a tale. The better lies are the ones closed to the truth: why risk the truth from coming out by saying Dalinar was shocked and unable to act when the truth is he ordered the burning? Why not just merely say Sadeas accidentally burned the Rift, like Dalinar says they should tell the men, after it happened. Why needing to have Dalinar been the tragic hero? That’s too far from the truth and neither Navani nor Gavilar nor Jasnah would have the incentive to protect Adolin’s hero-worshiping complex by spinning him another false tale. Evi had her reasons the rest of the Kholin family may not share. Hence, I don’t think that part was included in the official version of the story… everything else, yes, but Dalinar, the tragic hero? No. They wouldn’t have gone *that* far.
In this optic, it’d be really interesting to hear out what Renarin’s version of the event is, to see if it matches Adolin’s…
Now, how is it the Kholin family thinks so highly of Dalinar given what he has done and how much do they know remains a mystery. I think the boys can be explained, but I agree it is more nebulous when it comes to Navani and Jasnah. The only explanation I got is both… never were against the conquest nor acts of violence, so they never thought Dalinar misbehaved. This part of the story always bothered me… Dalinar ought to have been a… divisive individual. As a reader, it made more sense in-world characters would have a more diverse range of reactions when it comes to Dalinar: some would praise him, some would idolize him, but some would literally hate him. The fact no one seems to fall within the last category as always been odd to me. Even without the knowledge of the Rift being made public, Dalinar did enough horrible “official” deeds to trigger negative reactions. Hence, I am forced to admit the Alethi culture is such, slaughtering your own men isn’t seen in a negative light, so long as victory was obtained.
I kind of wish we had alternate viewpoints. Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar, Renarin, and Adolin all viewing Dalinar as the greatest man alive just violently clashes with Dalinar’s past history. At the very least, if he were praised for having won “a lot of victories”, but he gets praised for “having a big heart”. How can Jasnah find Dalinar has “the greatest heart she has ever seen” when she witnessed the pain he caused Renarin when he chose to ignore his existence for 13 years? Even if Dalinar did change, in recent years, Jasnah is more than old enough to have a more… careful opinion of her uncle.
I find those details weren’t well explained in the books. Either explanations will come later or Brandon merely didn’t want Dalinar’s capital of sympathy to erode by having in-world characters criticize him… I don’t know which one is closer to the truth.
Gepeto @40:
We don’t actually know that the Ryshadium would necessarily prefer the Radiants or anything. IMHO, Adolin isn’t going to bond another Ryhsadium not because he is perceived as “unworthy”, but because I believe that he’ll need to internalise and follow the Ideals of the Edgedancers in order to revive Maya, and those stand against seeing other beings as easily replaceable. And also, the Orders that have Gravitation and Abrasion don’t need mounts, as they are much speedier without, and I, for one, think that Adolin will eventually get the Edgedancer Surges.
Shallan, Renarin and Jasnah, OTOH, will need mounts to get places swiftly and I expect that Adolin will teach them how to befriend a Ryshadium, which would offer a good reason for the corresponding flashback. Yes, Jasnah has Transportation, but if it is as imprecise and limited as hinted, then she’ll still need the means to move around quickly over shorter distances. She’ll need to project a strong front as the first female ruler of Alethkar as well, and a Ryshadium would be much preferrable to a palanquin for the PR purposes.
I completely disagree that Dalinar didn’t face dangers that he needed protection from – since after he rejected Odium, the latter ordered his Fused to kill him and that thunderclast might have joined in, too. And sure, Dalinar could heal from a blow or two, but the Fused had no problems killing armored Radiants and heralds in the past, despite their stormlight regeneration, and he couldn’t afford to fight back, not with everything so saturated with the Thrill. Not to mention that he also needed to be free of other encumbrements to trap the Unmade. And Kaladin – and Szeth, but Kaladin couldn’t have expected that bit of help, _did_ provide the necessary protection in the nick of time.
As to Adolin – unfortunately, there was nothing to be done about his mortal wound, since none of his companions in Shadesmar had Progression. It isn’t like Kaladin didn’t want to help him – and IIRC he did refuse to abandon him – this certainly played a part in his inability to say the Fourth Ideal.
To me it seems that Navani and Jasnah also hero-worshipped Dalinar or at least saw him through very rose-colored glasses. And while they may have been OK with conquest in general, the burning of Rathalas was an atrocity beyond the pale even for what is acceptable during wartime in their culture. There is also the fact that Dalinar did often act to spare the populations of conquered towns in the past under some pretext, as seen in his first flashback, so it wouldn’t have been implausible for even the more jaded Kholins to believe that he would have stopped the burning of Rathalas if he could. If Gavilar told them a story that put all the responsibility on Sadeas, they would have wanted to believe it.
I do find it contrived that apparently nobody living elsewhere was related to the Rathalas people and the Tanalan ruling family and carried the grudge. But maybe Sadeases preemptively took care of them.
@41: I think there is an old WoB which states Rhysadiums weren’t exclusive to the knights Radiants though most Rhysadiums would choose one of them. In other words, not being a Radiant does not automatically bar Adolin from being picked, again, it just makes it considerably less likely and considering the possibilities of being picked by a Rhysadium were slim, to begin with… Well, I more or less figured we wouldn’t see Adolin ride another Rhysadium unless it is Gallant. I am *still* keeping my fingers crossed Gallant will eventually let Adolin ride him given he’s the one who takes care of him now Dalinar no longer takes the time to.
You make a valid point in stating Edgedancers oaths may be such Adolin will never be able to fully grief Sureblood and, as a result, wouldn’t attract another horse. I had never thought of the oaths being conflictual, but I think your arguments do make sense. I agree Jasnah, Renarin, and Shallan will need a Rhysadium and are likely to eventually get one. Since I do not think Adolin will get full Edgedancers powers, I would argue he would benefit from one too, but we are dipping into speculations here.
On the matter of Dalinar facing dangers, given the fact Jasnah kills Fused left and right, I struggle imagining how much of a threat they would have posed to Dalinar. This may be an issue with how they have been portrayed, so far: inefficient, easy to kill if you are a Radiant, need to team up if they want to so much as think to get close to one of the Radiants. You make a good point, however, in saying Kaladin/Szeth served to distract the enemy while Dalinar trapped the Unmade. This wasn’t a line of thought I had considered.
While Adolin was certainly doomed, it never sat well with me how Kaladin just leaves him behind to go protect Dalinar once they cross into the physical realm. I always took it Kaladin’s internalized his inner mission a little too much and his focus on “protect Dalinar” made him lose focus on what was happening around him. A good friend would have made sure Adolin was “all right” before leaving to go fight an enemy: this lack of concern really unnerved me, but I also know many readers do not feel the same, so this may be an issue only I have.
Hero-worshipping doesn’t seem like an attitude both Navani and Jasnah would readily adopt. It works with Adolin because he was a naturally impressionable eager to please kid: even Dalinar notes how Adolin easily marvels at things early in OB. So this is a character trait he has which helped fuel his views of his father. The emotional entanglement makes all more plausible.
What reasons would Navani and Jasnah have to share similar views on Dalinar? Jasnah is a rational woman, not one to praise uselessly others nor to worship others. This just doesn’t fit with what we know of Jasnah. Hence, her opinion of her uncle has to be… factual. We saw it with her cousins: she readily likes Renarin because he shares a similar mind, she likes Adolin, but she finds him slow-witted by her high standards. Those impressions are based on her evaluation of their personas. She is, after all, a versitalian, she seeks the truth, so why would she settle for a tale? OB highlighted Jasnah had military knowledge, so how is it she hasn’t been able to reconstruct a more plausible story for her uncle? Jasnah also isn’t one to entertain a romanticized version of events, she is pragmatic, realistic, and down-to-earth.
Also, Jasnah while praises Dalinar’s “great heart” in WoR, in OB she speaks of young Renarin crying on her shoulder over a father “unable to feel love”. How did Jasnah go from “my uncle is unable to love his own son” to “my uncle has the greatest heart I have ever met”? It doesn’t add up. So far, the only explanation I managed to come up with is Jasnah merely never put much stock value in how her uncle treated Renarin nor was she bothered by what happened at the Rift. She saw both as necessities: she can feel empathy towards Renarin’s sadness, but not enough to change her opinion of her uncle. In other words, she doesn’t view his actions as negative.
I agree this doesn’t make for a strong argumentation and not one I am convinced of.
Navani is an oddball. I can buy she has been in love with Dalinar all those years and, as a result, has turned a blind eye to his misbehaving. She genuinely seemed to believe Dalinar loved Evi in WoR, so she, at least, seems to have a romantic strike which could have resulted in her naturally siding with Dalinar. A bit like Adolin. Dalinar is drunk? Then Dalinar is suffering, he needs more care, we need to love him even more. The anger and frustration many families face when placed within similar situations just seem absent with the Kholin family. I, however, struggle to believe both Navani and Jasnah did not know the whole truth about Rathalas… Either they know and they chose not to care or they really do not know, but chose not to dig any further.
On the fact no one seems to be related to anyone at Rathalas: Yes. It was contrived. Rathalas was a large town comprised of thousands of inhabitants. It is virtually impossible for each one of them to have been accounted for on that faithful night. It is virtually impossible no one was away on a business trip or visiting family members. It is virtually implausible no one had relatives living in other parts of Alethar. Even the fact there were no survivors is iffy. It is hard to control such a large population. Rathalas might not have had many official exits, but surely desperate people would have tried to climb the cliff, surely some people squeezed through. It was night, it was dark. It seems more plausible to believe a handful of people might have gotten out than to believe Dalinar effectively killed every single soul.
What is, however plausible, is even if there were survivors and foreign relatives or inhabitants having been away that night, they would have kept quiet. The burning of Rathalas cemented Gavilar’s reign. No one was ever going to even think of opposing him. Thus, it makes sense any survivor would have just… tried to disappear, not to make any waves, biding time until an opportunity arises or just blaming Tanalan.
How would have Sadeas managed to hunt down every single individual related to anyone having died at Rathalas? Unless Alethkar has official records keeping tabs on its population complete with family trees, at a time where computers do not exist nor fingerprints, it would have been virtually impossible for Sadeas to track down every one. It is more plausible everyone just kept its mouth shut, but maybe with the Fused now, they won’t be so quiet. I doubt there is only one Moash in all of Alethkar.